Can you please enlighten me on a polite socially-appropriate way to say to a stranger: “Hello, a disgusting old man, I don’t even care about your marital status, for I cannot possibly have any sexual attraction to you”? What, you say there is no such way? Because to a woman you can certainly say “Hello Ma’am.” And the poor thing is left wondering “Why Ma’am, why not Miss? Is this my hair? Is this my dress? Is this my Bugatti? Is this Texas?”
(A little tip: when you are riding a Bugatti, you are always a “Miss”, which means “I would do any favors, including sexual, to whoever owns this car, if she lets me drive.”)
Hooray, the European Parliament got a proposal to ban the words “Madam”, “Mademoiselle”, “Signora”, “Signorina” etc, as offensive to women!
Indeed, I always found it unfair that when you address a male, neither “Sir” no “Mister” imply anything about his age or marital status, while I’m always bombarded with insults both on the phone with customer service, and when the men who won’t talk about anything until you answer their “Miss or Missis?” question. (Translation: “Do you belong to someone, or is there a possibility that I can own you?”.)
Two things I know are:
1. When someone addresses me as “Ma’am” – it means I should never ever wear this fugly hairstyle again (and losing 10 lbs wouldn’t hurt either). I would never call a human being that did me no wrong “Ma’am”, unless he/she insists.
2. When a store clerk addresses me as “Beautiful Young Miss” – this means that he/she thinks that I, or my husband, or my Sugar Daddy is filthy rich, and is picturing a huge commission in his/her head. I think I should reward good behavior with huge commission; if, on the other hand, the salesperson says an M-word, I don’t even care if he/she is being rude or just being plain silly, I will make sure the commission goes to somebody else, even if this means going to a different store.
Btw, if somebody wants to be respectful, I like “Ana”, “Anya”, “Ana Moure”, “Your Impeccable Perfectness”, “Charming, beautiful, sophisticated, and modest Miss Moure”, and “Yes, Sir”.
Things I’m okay with are “Hey, Lady” and “Miss” (I’m aware that, coming from a straight man, this means “I find you plump and sexually attractive enough; if I could, I’d do you”, – but it still beats “Ma’am”)
“Dr. Moure” would have been great, but I never finished my PhD.
Besides for my first question,
– Ladies, how do you prefer being addressed, and which words do you absolutely hate?
– Gentlemen, how do you find polite to address the strangers of an opposite sex? (speak freely, for I’m not lobbying a law that demands a court-ordered public castration to anyone saying “Ma’am”… Yet. Though it’s tempting, and I loved spending time in Washington DC.)
I never minded “Ma’am”, and I find it infinitely preferable to “You Bitch”.
Even, “Respectfully, You Bitch.”
I like to use “my lady” or “m’lady” if I want to fluster the lady being addressed… and I avoid using it if it might cause upset instead.
Neutral pronouns are a bit of a pet topic for me. I like to use “sie” for she or he, and “hir” for him or her. Neither one, of course, would work spoken, so yer on yer own there, lassie. ;-D
How do you feel about honey? (duck) I think I have sort of resolved this by avoiding honorifics when I can. I occasionally use the Mizzz term, but it feels kind of dumb. I think I have reverted more to Miss when in doubt or just asking for a name.
We need the equivalent of sir for women. We also need the equivalent of dude. Why is it that men get these more universal egalitarian titles? You suggest ownership which is probably partially true. How do you then explain the common vernacular expressions?
Steve
The cat anahata: “I never minded ‘Ma’am’, and I find it infinitely preferable to ‘You Bitch’.”
I avoid use of the b-word save for round midnight, aka the We-bitch-ing Hour.
Franklin: “I like to use “my lady” or “m’lady”…”
I have no problem with the words – it’s the tricky m’lady wot keeps me from singing in tune.
steve2 news at 6: “How do you feel about honey? (duck)”
Honey is good on toast, but duck sauce is good, too.
“I have sort of resolved this by avoiding honorifics”
I’d like someday to romance on a weekend getaway a woman judge unsure of my affections, just so when she tests the waters in, so to speak, fishing for compliments, I can tell her “I think Your Honor-ific!” Then if that made her happy, I’d call the beverage clerk in room service and order in the quart to celebrate my finally telling “the truth, &c.” per sworn custom…
I remember from my cover-letter days the salutation “Dear Sir or Madam” as preferable to “To Whom It May Concern”, but I suppose that sounds Jurassic in many a quarter now; best practice was to research further so as to get an actual name of record and target your letters thereon.
During my retail years, 1991-1999, if I had to call after, say, a departing customer who left behind a possession, it was either “Sir” or “Madam”; somehow, “Excuse me!” or “Hello?” alone sounds a bit rude without the gendered title, though I’m willing to reserve “Hermie” for those possessed of ambidickestrus plumbing…
Er, in my final paragraph @ 7:43, replace “Madam” with “Ma’am”.
I hate to disappoint a fine lady like yourself, but down here in Texas, we say, “Howdy, Ma’am” and I don’t see us changing anytime soon.
Pre-boot camp, I never gave the topic of honorifics much thought.
At Parris Island, we were trained to address pretty much everyone as “Sir”, or “Ma’am”. In the rest of the Corps, such terms are only used to address officers & civilians. (Indeed, some NCOs will take offense to being called “sir” – e.g., “Don’t call me ‘Sir’ – I work for a living.”) Nowadays, I’ll sometimes use “sir” or “ma’am” to address strangers, but not always. Except with law enforcement officers, who are always “sir” or “ma’am”. (Might as well be polite to the armed individual writing up your ticket….)
As for the “Mrs. / Miss” dilemma – for whatever reason, I haven’t had many issues with it. My guess is, I rarely talk with strange women over the phone, and in person I just check for a ring & adjust fire accordingly. Or maybe I just haven’t lived long enough.
Franklin – I would totally melt from M’lady and Millady from a handsome gentleman with long hair; I also love “hir” and “sie”, but I think it would be easier if all people regardless of their sex, adopted the same word, I don’t even care from which sex. As I told, I don’t mind being “him”, if my stuff was referred to “his”, and on the beach I’d rather be “Dude” than “Dudette”. Alternatively, if “Sir” when speaking to a man was totally replaced with an M-word, I would be way more tolerant to it.
Steve – anything for you (but Ma’am). “Honey”, “Sweetie”, “Pumpkin pie”, “Sugar Tits”… My boundaries are totally different depending on how good I know the person.
And which slang expressions don’t imply ownership?
DSL – I always choose “Excuse me”, – it’s both polite and gender-neutral. Love your judge story!
John E – maybe that’s the reason I left Texas. I finally grew my bob haircut into something of a longer sort, that qualified me as “young Miss” in the eyes of store clerks and waiters. But I got tired of the fact that anyone could call me “Ma’am” out of blue. I’d prefer Anahata’s “Bitch”, because carrying guns was still legal in Texas; and if there were enough witnesses seeing the incident, they would testify in my favor during the trial. I’m afraid that wouldn’t be the case if enough witnesses saw somebody calling me an M-Word, – so in Texas I couldn’t defend my honor.
MI – just use Miss when you see no ring – and you’re safe.
I try to avoid using these forms of address for the reasons you stated. I usually try to make eye contact so it’s clear whom I’m addressing. If this is not possible, and I absolutely need to address someone, I hope the necessity of my communication trumps my form of address. So far so good – I have a demeanor that most understand to be more gentle and helpful than predatory or creepy.
Franklin, I’ve been delighted with your suggested pronoun and address revisions since I learned of them. If only we had an English-language equivalent of the Academie Frances, or the Royal Academia Española, then perhaps we could petition to institutionalize the revisions. Perhaps we could write letters to prime time news anchors to start?
ana: “Steve – anything for you (but Ma’am). ‘Honey’, ‘Sweetie’, ‘Pumpkin pie’, ‘Sugar Tits’… My boundaries are totally different depending on how good I know the person.”
Wow. Well, Steve is a doctor, after all.
I’m almost tempted to blog here unto my dying breath, being superhumanly nice to Ana all the while (O the superhumanity!), just so that while blogging from my deathbed, I can live the following last rite:
Ana: And so, DSL., on behalf of myself and all those whipperbloggersnappers after us now forming Alexandria: Then X Generations Whirled Without End, we wish you the best in your next blog hereafter.
DSL. [wheezing]: Why, thank you, “Sugar T-” [eyes close, head cocks in smirking deathmask]
Ana: And to think the chance to call me that is what kept him alive all those years!
DSL.: That – and Steve’s faithful comments on my posts all those years…
Ana: Hey, you’re supposed to be dead!
DSL.: I am now! [16-ton weight drops from ceiling]
Ana [thought balloon]: I hope I can get 16-ton weight back to shop before late fee kicks in…
Steve2.99 [in scrubs]: Is he still alive? I was going to show him this chart of Icelandic revenues, 1066-2066, I got from Cowen – or was it Sullivan? Oh…I see…is his widow around? I should pay my respects.
Ana: Yes, хороший доктор, his laptop’s right there – or what there is of it, after the 16-ton weight…
FIN
I’m OK with Ma’am, or Miss. When I was younger, I was delighted at either of these, because it meant I wasn’t being called “Honey” or “Sweetie.” Also, I got used to “Ma’am” working at my first full time job, where lots of military folks called who were evidently directed to address all men as Sir and women as Ma’am.
Once my husband started to object to my being a “Miss” – I wanted to tell him, “Shut up, they’re just trying to be polite and not suggest that I’m old.”
Of course, I’d prefer my name from people who actually know it.
We need the equivalent of sir for women. We also need the equivalent of dude.
Yeah, I agree here. Some neutral, generally agreed on polite way to address women that doesn’t immediately suggest you’re commenting in one way or another on the woman’s sexual attractiveness would be a good thing.
Lahti- I predict you are more likely to die while being attacked by someone with a banana, unless you keep tigers.
Steve
Anya, I need to do some looking up, but my sieve-like memory has the following:
In The Left Hand of Darkness, Ursula LeGuin speculates on language usages in a sub-species of humans whose normal physical state is androgynous, and move to male or female cyclically (a mother of some children being the father of more). I need to look that one up.
L.E. Modesitt, Jr.’s “Recluse” novels has a human society where men and women have equal expectations in every role, vocation and craft except child bearing. He uses the genderless* “ser” when one character addresses another.
*I wonder if “gender inclusive” might be more accurate.
Oh Scott, this should be made into a movie, I couldn’t stop laughing, no matter how many times I re-read this scenario! Certainly you can always call me “Sugar tits” (I cannot give knighthood to all the good Sirs here, but this privelege I can grant)
Franklin, fair Ser, that’s what I’d really like our society to turn into.
Hundred years ago child-bearing wasn’t that much of an option, more of a destiny. I cannot understand why people now just assume that if something is possible, one just has to want to do it more than anything else in the world.
The problem I had with Ursula Le Guin’s world is as far as I recall, the “female magic” was very different from “male magic”, – and certainly the male magic was way more exciting, even if less meaningful and stuff. In this sense, I’d rather go to Hogwartz, even though it’s a pretty sexist institution too, – but at least boys and girls learn the same stuff.
Right idea, wrong world, Anya. You are thinking of Earthsea (and the wizard Ged), and the novel I cite is from her science fiction series the Hainish Cycle.
Thank you for the tip, indeed my book was about Ged, – I’ll Kindle yours then! I think I like that other world better than Earthsea.
Given my self-proclaimed sieve-like memory, you should be impressed that I remembered Ged’s name so easily, and that I love Le Guin’s work in general.
Oh, and it’s just about guaranteed at this point, Anya, that should we ever meet, I shall bow over your hand, kiss it, and say “well met, m’lady.” ;-D
I was at a fantasy con in Baltimore and this middle-aged Renfaire biddy* kept calling me ‘child.’ I don’t think she meant anything by it but it was a little off-putting.
*I would never call anyone a Renfaire biddy to their face.
Deal, my lord!
When I call a military base in my professional capacity, the person answering almost always starts out “Camp Swampy legal office, good afternoon sir or ma’am.” Back in the day (ten years ago plus) it was always “sir.” Since I have a rather deep speaking voice, it sometimes continued to be “sir” even after I responded.
Anyway, I’m fine with “sir or ma’am.” I’m okay with Ms. But I hate hate hate being first-named by total strangers, especially strangers who have not even introduced themselves first. I’m also not keen on having my name mispronounced. Especially my first name, which is pretty ordinary and easy. My last name, admittedly, is easily confused with a common variety of pasta, and I can’t be too difficult about that. However, when I get called by a fund-raiser who mispronounces my name, that immediately cuts the charity in question out of my budget forever.
I went through a phase, back in the day, of using Quaker etiquette–formal usage was either “John Smith” or “Friend Smith” or, in the plural non-specific, “Dear Friends.” But that ultimately got swamped by the indiscriminate first-naming of the ’60s (see above.)
Mr. Wired, BTW, thinks there should be an honorific for married men, maybe MRR, pronounced Mister-er.
Ana, my mother has students who refer to her as “Miz Lady.” I hear that constantly. *Shiver*
I’m not so concerned with any of these as long as they’re meant politely. Most clerks are not highly skilled etiquette consultants during their spare hours, so I’m at peace with almost anything as long as they’re doing their best.
Usually, when I hear “Ma’am,” there’s a high school kid running behind me with something I dropped, so being choosy in that scenario would be silly of me.
“Lahti- I predict you are more likely to die while being attacked by someone with a banana, unless you keep tigers.” — St2
Hehehe.
“I like to use “my lady” or “m’lady” if I want to fluster the lady being addressed… and I avoid using it if it might cause upset instead.” — Franklin
Franklin, this would only work for me if you stuck a feather in your hat and called it ‘macaroni.’ Otherwise, I’d laugh my ass off. :P
“*I would never call anyone a Renfaire biddy to their face.” — moro
That’s why I can’t go to those conventions. I would have gone ahead with it and hoped her husband, Zoltar, wouldn’t have reconfigured my molecular structure so that I was forever stuck somewhere in Tron.
Must keep my brethren and van Sisteren of the Alexandrian frapasororiternity straight: on another thread we have a wordadvocate and a dadvocate51; on this one we have an ana and an anahata56 (put your glasses on if you need to); perhaps after one self-italicising DSL. we now need HM Stuart to recruit a DSL.fuel61, and a steverino2009…and with a Buddy/Rich/Little/Richard/Benjamin/Franklin/Evans string we’d soon, without the need for a single external hyperlink, become the Barrel of Monkeys of the blogosphere…
ana: “Oh Scott, this should be made into a movie, I couldn’t stop laughing, no matter how many times I re-read this scenario! Certainly you can always call me ‘Sugar tits’ (I cannot give knighthood to all the good Sirs here, but this privelege I can grant)”
Hey, thanks, I really appreciate it, Sug- [clutches chest, staggering, after Fred Sanford]
No, dearest плюшки меда, such unaccustomed intimacies seem to bring me up short healthwise – even an innocuous “honey buns”, safely tucked away in my Fool’s Russian as immediately above, triggers my LifeAlert and sends me back reeling to my Craftmatic adjustable; as an interim stand-in for Sugar T-t-t- [recall Fonzie from Happy Days stumbling over "love" when feeling it] I’m going to have to suck up, as it were, to Big Ag and stick with “High Fructose Corn Syrup Ma’ams” – as it were, again – and get cracking for spring on the cardio workouts, before my next attempt at “sweet talking” – as it were! – our fair Russofille…
Franklin: “I love Le Guin’s work in general.”
All this Ursuline tub-thumping tempts me to sample her work – it’s time I – apologies to Cole Porter – began the Le Guin…
And – apologies to Bob Dylan and Manfred Mann, &c.:
♫ Come Ursulout, come Ursulin -
You’ll not see nothing like Le Mighty Guin…♫
DSL, how do you get that cool Cyrillic lettering in your posts?
Wiredsisters, I agree that adding married/not married qualificator to men’s name would do a lot to equality, still I don’t think being married is such an achievement one wants to be reminded of each time another person addresses hir (contrary to a PhD, or to successfully graduating the med school).
If anything, I’d rather know by the man’s title if he has kids (and how many); also I strongly advocate men’s titles telling some insights about their annual income. Say “Ehh. Smith” for below $250K/year, “Blah. Smith” for $250K to $5M/year, and “Wawawoom. Smith” for over $5M/year. But I agree that’s none of my business, – just like a woman’s marital status is none of the business of every random stranger.
wired: “DSL, how do you get that cool Cyrillic lettering in your posts?”
Like, Zoinks, Scoob, that’s a closely guarded blog-trade secret!
Gilligan: Skipper, I’m never, ever going to tell you where I hid the coconuts – never, ever, ever!
Skipper: Gilligan, tell us, or we’ll never tell you where we hid your comic books!
Gilligan: They’re behind the Howells’ hut.
Alrighty, then:
I type babelfish into my browser, and Enter.
I type my chosen word(s) into the translation box.
At the “Select from and to languages” menu, I select “English to Russian”, and click “Translate”.
If the Russian translation comes back Cyrillic, I copy and paste it into a comment box here.
If not, I try other words until I get a Cyrillic translation.
I trust you not to tell Ana – word to your (otherwired engaged)sisters, I think I have her convinced I make up for my lack of liquid assets in the coin of my realm with my being fluid in her mother tongue.
Oh, wait, these are her threads I’m writ(h)ing in, after all, aren’t they, as I tremble at being caught dressed far above my 100-watt station: The DSL. Fears Prada.
There, there, Son – whatever happens, remember, your mother and I will always be Prada you.
I love languages where word order offers, ahem, entertainment pause.
But really, Scott, I think “plyushki” is just about right no matter which way you look at it, and she definitely is a “meda”.
Franklin: “But really, Scott, I think ‘plyushki’ is just about right no matter which way you look at it, and she definitely is a ‘meda’.”
To me, “plyushki” suggests one of two things, (1) the surname of the actress, Suzanne Plyushki, who played Emily Hartley in the Russian version of The Bob Newhart Show, or (2) Plyushkin, a character from Gogol’s Dead Souls whose name suggests compulsive hoarding and self-neglect, especially by the elderly.
As for “meda”, the word is heard most often in cases of financial profligacy with the money of a benefactor, especially within a family, e.g., “What do you think I am, meda money?”
In other language news, the Babelfish translation of “What’chew talkin’ ’bout, Willis?” into Russian was unavailable at post time.
DSL, in the Babelfish might not know this, but the Leo Kaganov plumber-to-Russian dictionary is very confident stating that Russian-plumberish for “What’chew talkin’ ’bout, Willis?” is “Сампоялшосказал?”
Btw, yes, now I am awareabout your plans to charm me with your impeccable Russian, and with your amazing knowledge of Russian classics.
In Russian, Pluyshkin is actually a word now: when we need to talk about someone’s compulsive hoarding we say “Oh, my little niece Zina is such a Plyushkin!” And for extremely lazy people we have another word from the classical literature, they are all “Oblomov”.